Good day, Trent. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. Otherwise things leading up to it, we could interpret them either in a broader sense. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. Thank you very much, Steve. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Yes. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. 17. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Hallow.com/mattfred. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. You answer that and then Ill ask Steve the next question. Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. There is no exception there. Adelphos is not my issue. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. H. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. I mean, I have to really think about that. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. How do we know that theyre brothers? And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Yeah. Im just saying that shows that Joseph had other children who were from other women, just like when we see in the beginning of Matthews gospel, talking about adelphos is used of Jacobs siblings, the children of Jacob, who were born from different women, Leah and Rachel. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? [It undermines] the theory that there was a single canon by the late first century C.E. (The Scrolls and Biblical Traditions, 41-43). It is not considered inspired. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Thats kind of hard. It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. So whenever you are ready, Ill click the timer. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. Theres no divine judgment on Mary in any form described here in Mark chapter three. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. Lets take a look here. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. It doesnt mention sin there. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. No, because their issue with Rome was about the sole authority of scripture over the sole authority of the church. Okay. May 31, 2022. He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? Perhaps John witnessed this event and then told others or this may have been given to John through some other kind of revelation. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. Well start with you, Steve. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. When Ive seen people in the chat say things like, Wouldnt you make your mother perfect? I dont like that argument. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. Well, in your example, its talking about father. I believe all things are possible with God. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. But I think so far, this has shown that Steve has not been able to apply scripture in an unambiguous way to show the Marian Dogma was contradicted. Thank you very much. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. Give me a second here. I command that you do it. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac" ( Gen 17:20-21 ). No one else ever before in the history of salvation had been asked to do something like that. But let me get to that point about death though. United States. So I think its important that each of us, we dont have a problem with We might have a problem how to apply it but the basic level mother of God isnt contradicted by scripture. Christie has nine field goals in overtime to his credit, an NFL record he shares with Jason Elam and Jim Breech. Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. Lets see. I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? He scored 100 or more points in eight of . 15. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. Probably not like any other piece of wood. You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. Okay. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. Finally, as H.G.L. Thats just how debates work. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. Good, because you know what? And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. Influenced early on by early monasticism, asceticism, and even gnostic-like texts, early Roman Catholics were troubled by how a created sinful fallen creature went on to have other children and could give birth to the sinless Son of God in the flesh. Well, again, this is the exception. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? I dont think he could do that. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. He offered them in the debate. Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Im not alone in believing this. January 07, 1964. Its free to watch the podcast. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. I have also appeared several Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Just keep it shorter than his response. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. Sep 29, 2021. Shameless plug. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. Well, in my own personal journey of faith, I think I had some difficulties with the immaculate conception of Mary and Marys bodily assumption, but I think I was able to move through those difficulties by broadening my understanding of what is the ultimate source of authority for Christians that its not Sola scriptura because the Bible itself doesnt even teach that. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. Thats just being read into the text. Give the person you disagree with a listen, really try to understand where theyre coming from because if after hearing their position, you still disagree with it, at least youll be better informed about what Protestants or Catholics believe so you can better engage them and resist the temptation to attack straw met. The only son? Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. Thanks for being a supporter mate. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. September 16, 2018 by Randal. I do. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. 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